Can you tell us a little bit about your background?
Jim Gish: I grew in Western Kentucky in the bosom of an incredible family where I felt cherished and loved beyond measure. I also grew up in the white hot forge of the Southern Baptist Church. It was a contradiction which, in the end, was to cause me to be both conflicted and uncertain about my own moral grounding. Unconditional love is a pure gift from God, but an atmosphere of absolutism and judgement cannot exist easily in a sensitive soul without also having deeply troubling consequences. My family saved me with its cosmic and all pervading love, but the knee jerk reaction to judge and pigeon hole other humans was a blemish on my soul and one I still deal with every day, and this dark strain is a product of the church in many ways.
In any case, my background as a rural, Southern male marked me with a fear of emotionalism in any form. This set up a standard of denial which twisted my soul. I realized, at an early age, I must find some sort of redemption and enlightenment lest I be scarred forever and disappear down that “toxic masculinity” rabbit hole which has destroyed so many Southern males. So, while my background formed me, it also pushed me into deep self-examination which continues to this day. Let me say, finally, that it was love and more love which snatched me back from the edge of the abyss.
What led you to study psychology?
Jim Gish: At the risk of sounding like a cliché, I became entranced with psychology because it gave me a vehicle to excavate my own belief systems and my heart. I wanted to know why and where and when I solidified into this sort of strange creature who was dabbling in existentialism at the age of fifteen without even knowing the term. I was confused and I wanted answers which resonated with me and gave me hope. I know that psychology does not have all the answers, but it allows us a way to begin to understand ourselves, our relationships, and our peculiarities.
How does your identity as a writer influence your work as a pastoral counselor?
Jim Gish: I have always maintained and continue to believe that my gift/curse for writing has been so very important in being able to understand myself and others and the world. In the explication of a character, one sees a hundred possible selves and knows that there are never simple answers to cosmic questions. I write and write to understand the world and my own role in a world, which is desperate for enlightenment and truth. Writing is cathartic and has given me a sense of control over the universe in some ways. I can write into being what I see, feel, hear, long for, and wonder about. I can write the reality of the hurt and pain of our world, but also the beauty and hope.
I know you have two cats, can you spend a little bit of time discussing the role of companion animals in healing and well-being?
Jim Gish: I must say that I have always loved animals. I grew up with dogs but our cats were barn cats who did not even have names. Then the miracle of my life, the birth of my two daughters, changed my world. When they became attached to stray cats and then moved a cat inside the house to protect him, I began my long love affair with these wonderful creatures. There is a quote attributed to Sigmund Freud, “Time spent with cats is never wasted.” I’m not sure he ever really said it, but I think it gets repeated because there are enough of us that believe it. I truly believe in the healing power of animals. Our cats that I helped my daughters raise, and then raised myself, have all been excellent therapists who have loved me and healed me at so many different levels. At a time when my life seemed to be without meaning or hope, these amazing babies snuggled down beside me as I went to bed and told me that I had worth, that I was their cat dad and that they loved me. I know many people experience this with their dogs, or horses, or other animal friends that they connect with in a way that is sometimes hard to do with people. For many of us, animals are a solace for the soul. When one hears the term “creatures of God” I think of my cats and all the companion animals who take such good care of their people.
I know books are a big part of your life. What three books have influenced you the most?
Jim Gish: I am a writer of fiction, and so I should have lots of inspirational biographies to note, but the first book which changed my life was How To Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnagie. I was twelve years old and to read a book which addressed social skills was a revelation.
Since then, I have to alternate between fiction and non-fiction. Lie Down in Darkness by William Styron was my awakening to lyricism and of beautiful language in order to engage the soul. I have read the book ten times and it never ceases to amaze me that Mr. Stryron explained (without explaining) that a writer is an interpreter of reality and life, and when that is done with poetic language, it transcends its own medium and becomes a celestial event of self-revelation. It set me on the road to filtering life through a poetic and other-worldly medium. So many books have reinforced my belief in the divine. I am in awe of words and ideas which may be our only devices toward ultimate truth and the road toward salvation. If that seems too mystical, I plead guilty.
Other books included To Kill a Mockingbird, Catcher in the Rye, and Lord of the Flies. I must interject that this whole subject is open to subjectivity and one’s natural inclinations. All hard won truths are necessarily intermingled with one’s spiritual inclination and one’s own cosmic adventures and needs.
I have also been really moved by the writings of Eckhart Tolle who writes about the way old emotional pain is carried in our bodies and how by returning to the present, and to the here and now, where we learn to accept what cannot be changed, we can begin to heal.
What are the three pieces of advice you would give to someone starting on the journey to understand themselves and to become healthier and more grounded?
Jim Gish: Because the questions change endlessly and the answers change endlessly, this will necessarily be an eclectic response. And even in the act of remembering and recording my responses, there are a thousand parenthetical pauses, but I will soldier on.
One piece of advice which has come back to me over and over is that the spiritual component of your life is a necessary and crucial connection for your philosophy and your ultimate answers, no matter how diverse are their origins and their answers. I remember one day in 1985 reading a line from Louise Hay, who wrote You Can Heal Your Life, which stopped me in my tracks: what you send out into the universe is what you will get back, over and over. If you are an angry, unhappy human being, you will live that fateful path and pass it onto your children. There are so many countless generations of unhappiness and fear and and inability to find peace of mind. In turning again and again to our spirits and to the holy, we can begin to transform what we put out into the universe.
Just recently I read a short essay which started out with these words: Raise the kind of child who you would love to be friends with. I thought that captured so much truth in a short sliver of advice.
Finally, and I think what I would like for a t-shirt to wear often, is the simple advice: Love and gratitude and forgiveness is all you know on earth and all you need to know. It is simple, of course, but not easy. And I realize it might sound quaint, like rainbows and unicorns, but really it is deeply hard work. I have to pull myself back and again and again to gratitude and love, because our world is one that encourages us to always want more, to never be satisfied, to complain, and be judgmental. It is hard to go against the grain of this in the world.
What have you learned going through your own “dark night of the soul?”
Jim Gish: I have learned that I must learn to love myself before I can love the universe. I have learned that tragedy is a part of everyone’s life and we must pray without ceasing and forget the ego and forget rampant materialism and forget ten thousand petty incidents which we thought were very serious and nearly fatal. Something I tell my students over and over is that life is full of great happiness and great tragedy and no one gets out of life without both of those. Yet, in the end, your life is about peace of mind, and all the hearts and souls you have touched. I still believe that even though sometimes I forget to live it.
What would you say to those who believe that therapy is for others and not for them?
Jim Gish: I would say that this answer is a way to deflect the very serious business of excavating the soul and discovering our truest selves. I would advise them to do lots of research and not to be discouraged if the first therapist is not perfect. There is someone out there for you. The growth one embraces as the tiny insights grow through therapy has probably saved many lives and brought joy and peace to many lives. It took us a long time to get where we are, so change to where we want to be is not usually overnight.
When no considers the statistic that seventy percent of suicides occur because of unaddressed depression and fear and the insatiable maw of minor madnesses, then you see the possibility of hope and salvation in therapy and personal truth. A good counselor meets you where you are at, and helps walk alongside you when you are longing for a life that is different than what you have now. Walking with my clients is a true joy, in many ways because I have struggled too and want to give back to the world that has given me so much despite my flaws and many mistakes.
Interview Conducted with Elizabeth Gish: April 2022
Lotus & Phoenix 